mozmac
Aug 18, 05:39 PM
well... i might as well give Apple and Nintendo my credit card number.
I feel the same. I will be lining up to get a Wii, although I'm not a huge fan of the name....it's growing on me.
I will also be lining up to get a new MacBook Pro when they update them AND when Leopard comes out. I better start saving my money now.
Apple is expected to launch an iPod that supports "wireless capabilities" to compete with Microsoft's upcoming Zune-branded MP3 players.
My favorite word in that sentence is "compete." I think the sentence should read, "Apple is expected to launch an iPod that supports 'wireless capabilities' to continue along their road map of innovation as they change the way we listen to music. Microsoft is expected to also include wireless technology in their mp3 player, named Zune, in order to compete with Apple."
There, I feel so much better about myself now.
I feel the same. I will be lining up to get a Wii, although I'm not a huge fan of the name....it's growing on me.
I will also be lining up to get a new MacBook Pro when they update them AND when Leopard comes out. I better start saving my money now.
Apple is expected to launch an iPod that supports "wireless capabilities" to compete with Microsoft's upcoming Zune-branded MP3 players.
My favorite word in that sentence is "compete." I think the sentence should read, "Apple is expected to launch an iPod that supports 'wireless capabilities' to continue along their road map of innovation as they change the way we listen to music. Microsoft is expected to also include wireless technology in their mp3 player, named Zune, in order to compete with Apple."
There, I feel so much better about myself now.
Philberttheduck
Nov 29, 08:30 PM
What'll be the price on this badboy, you think?
netdog
Aug 25, 09:34 AM
Arent Core 2s being reported in shortage by intel suppliers?
Yeah, coz Apple bought 'em all up to fill them super-secret shipping containers arriving on Sept. 5 full of bitchin' Core 2 iMacs, Minis, MBPs and MBs.
Yeah, coz Apple bought 'em all up to fill them super-secret shipping containers arriving on Sept. 5 full of bitchin' Core 2 iMacs, Minis, MBPs and MBs.
dime21
Apr 20, 09:26 PM
sorry no longer the case for most of that.
Manuals now cost more to buy than autos due to fewer of them being built so supply is lower.
No really cheaper to maintain. Hell manuals can go 200+k with out the tranny or the engine needing to be pulled. Manuals sorry you have to pull one of those items ever 100k miles to replace the clutch. That eats up the saving so at best it is a break even in that department.
Tranny might last longer but that is about it. Still has to be pulled ever 100k to replace clutch. Hell an auto tranny will out last the car any how so a non issue.
Power wise yes auto is going to eat a little more of the power off the engine but really not much less than the manuals eat due to modern hydrolics and more physical locking together of the engine and tranny.
Fuel economy. Sorry no longer the case. High way the get the same due to the fact that the tranny of both are physically locked to with the engine so no gain there. City mileage Autos can and often times do get better MPG even more so with the modern CVT. CVT for the extra gear ratios and on top of that you have computer controlled shifting that can time it quicker and faster and at better points for MPG than any human can.
Even Autos now have 5-7 gears so that gain is even lost from the manuals. They have the same number of gears pretty much standard now.
Now control. I will give you that. but that is about it.
sorry, but wherever you got your information, it is not correct. fwiw, my last car, a vw passat, i sold with 312k miles on it. i bought it new at the dealer. still had the original clutch. your 100k replacement claim is bogus.
highway mileage is different due to gear ratios, not "physically locked". automatics use different ratios than manuals, even with same engine. shift speed is irrelevant for mileage.
and lastly, manuals do not cost more. every car i've ever owned, new or old, including my 2007 porsche 911, have come standard with a manual transmission. if you want automatic, that's an option you pay extra for, several $thousand in some cases. i've never owned an American car, so maybe the domestics are different, but your blanket statement is still wrong.
on my wife's mercedes, it needs automatic fluid change every 30k miles. dealer charges ~$300 for this. That's $1000 in service in 90k miles assuming nothing breaks. My manual transmission requires no service or fluid changes for 100k miles. $1000 in maintenance vs $0 in maintenance. automatic is far more expensive from a maintenance standpoint.
Manuals now cost more to buy than autos due to fewer of them being built so supply is lower.
No really cheaper to maintain. Hell manuals can go 200+k with out the tranny or the engine needing to be pulled. Manuals sorry you have to pull one of those items ever 100k miles to replace the clutch. That eats up the saving so at best it is a break even in that department.
Tranny might last longer but that is about it. Still has to be pulled ever 100k to replace clutch. Hell an auto tranny will out last the car any how so a non issue.
Power wise yes auto is going to eat a little more of the power off the engine but really not much less than the manuals eat due to modern hydrolics and more physical locking together of the engine and tranny.
Fuel economy. Sorry no longer the case. High way the get the same due to the fact that the tranny of both are physically locked to with the engine so no gain there. City mileage Autos can and often times do get better MPG even more so with the modern CVT. CVT for the extra gear ratios and on top of that you have computer controlled shifting that can time it quicker and faster and at better points for MPG than any human can.
Even Autos now have 5-7 gears so that gain is even lost from the manuals. They have the same number of gears pretty much standard now.
Now control. I will give you that. but that is about it.
sorry, but wherever you got your information, it is not correct. fwiw, my last car, a vw passat, i sold with 312k miles on it. i bought it new at the dealer. still had the original clutch. your 100k replacement claim is bogus.
highway mileage is different due to gear ratios, not "physically locked". automatics use different ratios than manuals, even with same engine. shift speed is irrelevant for mileage.
and lastly, manuals do not cost more. every car i've ever owned, new or old, including my 2007 porsche 911, have come standard with a manual transmission. if you want automatic, that's an option you pay extra for, several $thousand in some cases. i've never owned an American car, so maybe the domestics are different, but your blanket statement is still wrong.
on my wife's mercedes, it needs automatic fluid change every 30k miles. dealer charges ~$300 for this. That's $1000 in service in 90k miles assuming nothing breaks. My manual transmission requires no service or fluid changes for 100k miles. $1000 in maintenance vs $0 in maintenance. automatic is far more expensive from a maintenance standpoint.
Benjy91
Mar 25, 03:55 PM
The Future of video games?
In the future, your controller will cost �400, require a 10ft HDMI cable, a �25 adapter, and have the graphics of a PS2.
In the future, your controller will cost �400, require a 10ft HDMI cable, a �25 adapter, and have the graphics of a PS2.
gnasher729
Jun 24, 11:47 AM
Imagine you lived in the 1500s and someone showed you two computers. If you had zero prior computer experience, would you pick a touch based computer... or would you pick one where you move some arrow shaped icon with a 2nd device called the mouse.
We're very used to using a mouse, but it's definitely not the most natural way to interact with a computer. It's not easy either. I've seen old people that never could figure out how to double click without moving the cursor 50 pixels from where they wanted to click.
The "natural" way to move a car would be to push it, or maybe attach two horses at the front. The method that we use is quite unnatural. :D
We're very used to using a mouse, but it's definitely not the most natural way to interact with a computer. It's not easy either. I've seen old people that never could figure out how to double click without moving the cursor 50 pixels from where they wanted to click.
The "natural" way to move a car would be to push it, or maybe attach two horses at the front. The method that we use is quite unnatural. :D
blueflame
Sep 6, 09:22 PM
I think everyone is obsessing about quality. someone here said earlier that its about convinience. these are going to be the same resoluition as the tv shows, and cost 3.99. i actually dont think they will be letting you burn it on a disk either. I agree that a movie rental system is the way to go. but honestly, for these prices, i can get through time warner all the on demand stations, (stars, stars2, cinemax, showtime, and like 3 hbo channels.) this is the future, there is no waiting to download anything, this model is waht for all reality needs to be used, then if you like the movie enough, you pay $15 for you to burn it to one dvd only (comes with label pictures and cover) maybe they even mail you the emtpy case. for that price, they will afford it.) anywy. maybe this set top box everyone wants is some sort of propriatary thing they are making like tivo, with a burner, from an apple cable server, with an ipod port. I like it. but this is such an exciting time.
A
A
aiqw9182
Mar 24, 02:51 PM
So, without using the supplied windows CD/Driver I can simply plug n' play the 5870 intom my 2009 MacPro and it work?! Heck, if you have done it without issues, then I'm tempted.
Ask for some more info on the Mac Pro board (http://forums.macrumors.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1) or use the search function on MacRumors. My knowledge on it is fairly limited.
Ask for some more info on the Mac Pro board (http://forums.macrumors.com/forumdisplay.php?f=1) or use the search function on MacRumors. My knowledge on it is fairly limited.
EagerDragon
Jul 19, 08:47 PM
Source? :rolleyes:
Little birdy. running the code.
Little birdy. running the code.
MattG
Aug 7, 07:46 AM
I personally wanna see a full home entertainment receiver so I can throw out this sony pos....give it built in airport, video out (slideshows, movies, etc), and make it do your speaker amp, a/v selection like any normal receiver does.....heck, give it a 1394a (or b) port on front to hook up your video camera, and stream it to your tv, or to your computer, or record it onto the built in DVD/HD-DVD or Blueray burner or DVR HD :P
If anyone can do it, they can.
You and me both...I've been wanting this for a while, more than anything else from Apple. I'd buy one in a second if they release it this week.
If anyone can do it, they can.
You and me both...I've been wanting this for a while, more than anything else from Apple. I'd buy one in a second if they release it this week.
QuarterSwede
Apr 9, 10:51 PM
I learned on a stick first and my first car (91 Honda CRX Si ... so much fun!) was a stick. I drove in so much stop and go traffic when it finally bit the dust I bought an automatic. I miss the control and fun of a stick though. One thing I don't miss is having to replace my clutch.
Also, I disagree with the automatics are largely less efficient than sticks thought. Even without DCTs, automatics can switch so much faster than a human can that any fuel consumption it uses is offset by it's quickness. Autos have been more fuel efficient or at the least the same as manuals for a long time. I find that the size and type of tire can make a bigger difference in fuel economy anyway.
Also, I disagree with the automatics are largely less efficient than sticks thought. Even without DCTs, automatics can switch so much faster than a human can that any fuel consumption it uses is offset by it's quickness. Autos have been more fuel efficient or at the least the same as manuals for a long time. I find that the size and type of tire can make a bigger difference in fuel economy anyway.
bcharna
Aug 6, 11:21 PM
I can't sleep.
MacRumors, stop making me dwell on this!!
PS, is anyone here waiting for Mac support for the Slingbox? Thats pissing me off too!
MacRumors, stop making me dwell on this!!
PS, is anyone here waiting for Mac support for the Slingbox? Thats pissing me off too!
akkkmed
Jan 8, 10:42 AM
2008 Pontiac G6. Lease is up soon...
(Not my picture)
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/3048/3101/32619050002_large.jpg
(Not my picture)
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_images/3/3048/3101/32619050002_large.jpg
quagmire
Feb 22, 08:04 PM
GM's early 1980s flirtation with diesels produced some disastrously bad designs that left a bad taste in the mouths of consumers and have been cited ever since as a factor, though it can be called into question whether this is really germane anymore. I think the continued impact of the Olds diesel debacle is overstated.
The lesson everyone learned that day is you don't make a diesel engine from a gasoline Small Block V8.
The lesson everyone learned that day is you don't make a diesel engine from a gasoline Small Block V8.
Sydde
Mar 19, 05:50 PM
IMO, the Fart and Porn/ Pin Up apps are more distasteful and offensive than the App you've mentioned.
More? No. This app says that homosexuals need help, a bit like alcoholics. That is far more offensive than farts or t&m.
More? No. This app says that homosexuals need help, a bit like alcoholics. That is far more offensive than farts or t&m.
ChrisA
Jul 18, 03:28 PM
How many of you who buy DVDs watch them more then once? More then twice? More than 20 times? Ok I've bought videos for my kids whaen they were in preschool nd they watched the same video 20 times in a row over a two week priod. So I'll aks "how many adults would want to watch the same DVD multiple times?" I figure almost no one would. So why buy a video. Renting seems the best. So now what you do is find a rental outfit that has the best terms
Apple will have the problem of balancing video quality with download times. I think a DVD quality feature film can be compressed down to 1GB. That's hours of time for most people so I doubt they will ofer that quality. So who wants to watch a poor quality movie? Someone I'm sure won't care and all Apple needs is 0.1% of the market to sell millions
Apple will have the problem of balancing video quality with download times. I think a DVD quality feature film can be compressed down to 1GB. That's hours of time for most people so I doubt they will ofer that quality. So who wants to watch a poor quality movie? Someone I'm sure won't care and all Apple needs is 0.1% of the market to sell millions
v66jack
Mar 1, 05:39 PM
Some people have ridiculously tidy desks, wheres all your stuff? I wish I could keep my desk as tidy as most of the people on here!
If your one of the people with stupidly tidy desks, does it genuinely look like that all the time? Or did you throw all the stuff on the floor, take the photo and throw it all back again?
If your one of the people with stupidly tidy desks, does it genuinely look like that all the time? Or did you throw all the stuff on the floor, take the photo and throw it all back again?
Nipz
Jun 23, 06:00 AM
This why iPad 4.0 has been delayed?
Yakuza
Nov 28, 07:37 AM
my last purchase
a 3 weekend (saturday 09h-18h) iPhone developer course - 794.76$
and 2 receipts from the Veterinarian Hospital for my female cat - 325.25$
a 3 weekend (saturday 09h-18h) iPhone developer course - 794.76$
and 2 receipts from the Veterinarian Hospital for my female cat - 325.25$
BenRoethig
Nov 29, 09:50 PM
I question the validity of a 17" stand-alone widescreen. Doesn't make sense, IMO. A 20" is already fairly compact and provides little more area and takes up no more room than a 17" 4:3 display.
As for pricing, I agree on some of what you posted -- the prices definitely need to go DOWN. What I don't agree with are the prices you posted -- even if Apple keeps a 20% premium over brands like Samsung, the prices should look more like:
17" - $269
20" - $349
24" - $629
30" - $1,699
...Like I said, those would be premium prices and are a good 10 to 20% higher than the going rate for good monitors with current panels (Samsung/Dell). Also with the next monitor revision, you can expect Apple to dump the 23" in favor of a 24" panel.
Or since Apple likes prices sort of clean make it
17" $299
20" $499
24" $899
30" $1699
Apple would still be completely ripping everyone off, it would just be close enough to reality where people might be inclined to bite.
As for pricing, I agree on some of what you posted -- the prices definitely need to go DOWN. What I don't agree with are the prices you posted -- even if Apple keeps a 20% premium over brands like Samsung, the prices should look more like:
17" - $269
20" - $349
24" - $629
30" - $1,699
...Like I said, those would be premium prices and are a good 10 to 20% higher than the going rate for good monitors with current panels (Samsung/Dell). Also with the next monitor revision, you can expect Apple to dump the 23" in favor of a 24" panel.
Or since Apple likes prices sort of clean make it
17" $299
20" $499
24" $899
30" $1699
Apple would still be completely ripping everyone off, it would just be close enough to reality where people might be inclined to bite.
The Flan Bandit
Jan 12, 11:21 AM
The most obvious reason behind the name MacBook Air for me is the removal of the wired Ethernet connector to the MacBook. There is two thing that prevent from making a very slim notebook: an optical drive and an ethernet connector (look at the ethernet connector on a MacBook, it take most of the height of the notebook).
So the MacBook Air would be the first Apple notebook having only a wireless connection...
And I agree that it will be made of aluminium...
FrenchMac
This sounds right to me about the Ethernet port, and possibly the also-large modem port being gone as well, but I bet there will be some way (a base station thinger or a USB device of some kind) that allows you to use Ethernet if you need to. How else would you set up an Airport with it?
I wonder if people will start calling it an "Air"? As in, "I'm using my Air to check all my emails from dudes pretending to be women on myspace." I'm not sure that sounds so good to me, but I like the name otherwise.
Also, I thought for sure they were going to call the iPod Touch the "airPod." Maybe they were reading my posts. Probably not, though.
So the MacBook Air would be the first Apple notebook having only a wireless connection...
And I agree that it will be made of aluminium...
FrenchMac
This sounds right to me about the Ethernet port, and possibly the also-large modem port being gone as well, but I bet there will be some way (a base station thinger or a USB device of some kind) that allows you to use Ethernet if you need to. How else would you set up an Airport with it?
I wonder if people will start calling it an "Air"? As in, "I'm using my Air to check all my emails from dudes pretending to be women on myspace." I'm not sure that sounds so good to me, but I like the name otherwise.
Also, I thought for sure they were going to call the iPod Touch the "airPod." Maybe they were reading my posts. Probably not, though.
balamw
Sep 7, 02:24 PM
Sorry for the nastly long URL (http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:9OrBsXYjfxgJ:www.amazon.com/b/%3Fie%3DUTF8%26node%3D16263011+unbox+site:amazon.com&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1&client=firefox-a), but this is a cache page from a google search where you can see what Amazons offerings are for their new download service.
Pretty broad selection. Including some TV Shows similarly priced to iTMS.
B
Pretty broad selection. Including some TV Shows similarly priced to iTMS.
B
tychay
Nov 28, 08:09 PM
I have no idea where you got that one from. The original Xbox never made a profit. Microsoft is deliberately selling the Xbox 360 at a loss to capture marketshare. However, the PS3 and Ninetindo Wii are selling like hotcakes, are latest big things, and have the buzz. The best laid plans ...
I think the first statement is correct or close to it. They may have had a single profitable quarter when Halo 2 was released. I'm not sure because they bury games in a Microsoft Entertainment and Devices Division. Which includes their smartphone stuff (now that it has stopped bleeding money) and their profitable and acclaimed mice, keyboards, and other stuff (all manufactured by other companies, sort of like Dell, but with a nicer design).
The second part I believe is now wrong. I think the XBox 360 is no longer a loss lead, though that might change as there is some speculation that they will be dropping the price to undercut Sony soon. I believe the fact that it is no longer a loss lead is causing a confounding with the "360 is profitable" commentaries here.
Another commenter mentioned how smart it was was the XBox had a hard drive on it. I’d say if it is so smart why did Microsoft remove it in the base model 360? I’ll point out that this happened because the price of hard drives do not get any cheaper! In fact the price of commodity hardware design doesn’t get any cheaper! Huh? Hard drives get bigger, not cheaper. Processors and chips get more powerful, not cheaper.
What went on is that successive iterations of the Playstation and Playstation 2 would allow Sony to combine chips to reduce the price (and make smaller PSOne and slim-cased Playstation 2). This outlet wasn't available to Microsoft because of their design which is why the XBox was a losing money for it's entire run and Sony played games by dropping their price before it ever turned a profit.
Those two things are "of a piece". While commodity hardware was an interesting idea, it was a failure. Which is why the XBox 360 is not built from commodity PC hardware. The hard drives are a necessary evil of the "Live" strategy so they're left in as an option and bundled with the Playstation 3. That's why these 6G consoles are expensive and not dropping in price fast.
Right now all this is moot since the thing to watch is the Sony gamble on a blue laser. Obviously it will get cheaper fast, but the question is how fast and how cheap? The horrible yields on the Cell processor isn't helping things.
Currently, the XBox 360 has sold very consistently at around 1.5 million units a quarter. The XMas quarter last year had supply issues and only sold .9 million units. That's hardly dominating. In fact, I think the Playstation 2 outsold the 360 in each of those quarters even though the device is six years old. Let's put some numbers here. Last year over 100 million Playstation 2’s had been sold, six months ago, they were selling 380k/month. The XBox 360 sold 6 million units since it's introduction over a year ago, six months ago they were selling 300k/month, they had fixed the channel problems that plagued the release.
Consider this: Nintendo sold 600,000 Wiis in the last eight days. Given the scarcity of the Playstation 3 and the popularity and addictiveness of WiiSports and Zelda, they should easily crush that .9 million opening quarter of the 360. And consider this: each unit at a profit with a number of titles putting money directly in Nintendo's pocket.
I'm not claiming that the Wii will beat the 360. I'm just pointing out that according to sales numbers, the 360 is no iPod, is not trending to an iPod, will never be an iPod. The iPod sits on 75% market share. The closest thing to an iPod in the entertainment market is the Playstation 2.
Which is a big distraction from the point. And what is the point? That the XBox is a bad analogy. It is best to consider their Windows CE->Smartphone Microsoft play to see that the Zune is a bad idea. How many years and failed ideas have there been (Windows CE, Windows Mobile, PocketPC, etc. etc.)? How many billions sunk (some years more than the entire capitalization of the PDA market)? How much marketshare? 6% of smartphones, 60% of the dead-end PDA market, and most of the dead ATM teller market (because IBM did a phased pull out, not because Microsoft "won"). And even those markets are being eaten by Linux faster than Windows.
The only thing we can learn from the XBox and Microsoft is that Microsoft pees on their partners (NVidia) at the earliest opportunity. But we already knew that as soon as the Zune didn't support Plays For Sure.
I think the first statement is correct or close to it. They may have had a single profitable quarter when Halo 2 was released. I'm not sure because they bury games in a Microsoft Entertainment and Devices Division. Which includes their smartphone stuff (now that it has stopped bleeding money) and their profitable and acclaimed mice, keyboards, and other stuff (all manufactured by other companies, sort of like Dell, but with a nicer design).
The second part I believe is now wrong. I think the XBox 360 is no longer a loss lead, though that might change as there is some speculation that they will be dropping the price to undercut Sony soon. I believe the fact that it is no longer a loss lead is causing a confounding with the "360 is profitable" commentaries here.
Another commenter mentioned how smart it was was the XBox had a hard drive on it. I’d say if it is so smart why did Microsoft remove it in the base model 360? I’ll point out that this happened because the price of hard drives do not get any cheaper! In fact the price of commodity hardware design doesn’t get any cheaper! Huh? Hard drives get bigger, not cheaper. Processors and chips get more powerful, not cheaper.
What went on is that successive iterations of the Playstation and Playstation 2 would allow Sony to combine chips to reduce the price (and make smaller PSOne and slim-cased Playstation 2). This outlet wasn't available to Microsoft because of their design which is why the XBox was a losing money for it's entire run and Sony played games by dropping their price before it ever turned a profit.
Those two things are "of a piece". While commodity hardware was an interesting idea, it was a failure. Which is why the XBox 360 is not built from commodity PC hardware. The hard drives are a necessary evil of the "Live" strategy so they're left in as an option and bundled with the Playstation 3. That's why these 6G consoles are expensive and not dropping in price fast.
Right now all this is moot since the thing to watch is the Sony gamble on a blue laser. Obviously it will get cheaper fast, but the question is how fast and how cheap? The horrible yields on the Cell processor isn't helping things.
Currently, the XBox 360 has sold very consistently at around 1.5 million units a quarter. The XMas quarter last year had supply issues and only sold .9 million units. That's hardly dominating. In fact, I think the Playstation 2 outsold the 360 in each of those quarters even though the device is six years old. Let's put some numbers here. Last year over 100 million Playstation 2’s had been sold, six months ago, they were selling 380k/month. The XBox 360 sold 6 million units since it's introduction over a year ago, six months ago they were selling 300k/month, they had fixed the channel problems that plagued the release.
Consider this: Nintendo sold 600,000 Wiis in the last eight days. Given the scarcity of the Playstation 3 and the popularity and addictiveness of WiiSports and Zelda, they should easily crush that .9 million opening quarter of the 360. And consider this: each unit at a profit with a number of titles putting money directly in Nintendo's pocket.
I'm not claiming that the Wii will beat the 360. I'm just pointing out that according to sales numbers, the 360 is no iPod, is not trending to an iPod, will never be an iPod. The iPod sits on 75% market share. The closest thing to an iPod in the entertainment market is the Playstation 2.
Which is a big distraction from the point. And what is the point? That the XBox is a bad analogy. It is best to consider their Windows CE->Smartphone Microsoft play to see that the Zune is a bad idea. How many years and failed ideas have there been (Windows CE, Windows Mobile, PocketPC, etc. etc.)? How many billions sunk (some years more than the entire capitalization of the PDA market)? How much marketshare? 6% of smartphones, 60% of the dead-end PDA market, and most of the dead ATM teller market (because IBM did a phased pull out, not because Microsoft "won"). And even those markets are being eaten by Linux faster than Windows.
The only thing we can learn from the XBox and Microsoft is that Microsoft pees on their partners (NVidia) at the earliest opportunity. But we already knew that as soon as the Zune didn't support Plays For Sure.
MShock
May 2, 05:40 PM
Interesting� after the new GNOME 3.0 release, I'm convinced we will move farther way from the typical menu layout to a more minimalist, more web interactive interface. iOS is probably the closest to that, but I see windows looking more like FireFox 4 for Windows with the Firefox pop down menu and elimination of File, Edit, View etc. at the top. Mac OS 10.8 or 11 will probably follow suit, except have more webOS like functionality, and will converge several apps into 1�
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